Trump on Trial: New York v. Donald Trump : MSNBCW : April 15, 2024 3:00pm-5:00pm PDT : Free Borrow & Streaming : Internet Archive (2024)

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historic, the first criminal trial of an expresident. >> when you're a star you can do anything. >> donald trump off the campaign trail and in the courtroom. >> i am going to jail because my decision to help trump. >> they made it sound look i had no choice. >> a tabloid case shaping the election. >> you cannot and will not normalize serious criminal conduct. >> and msnbc special trump on trial starts now. good evening here at msnbc kleinup the all star loonup is covering the trial. and later joy steffi and lawrence with us. today, is the first time donald trump sat as defendant for the actual start of any criminal

trial. we are past enindictments, arraignments and all the pretrial motions. and the many, many failed attempts by trump and his lawyers to delay this judgment day today in new york. he lost the efforts. and this defense table is not where he wanted to be today. manhattan da alvin bragg achieved results where others were thwarted he to being a campaign cover-up and charged it as a plot. potential jurors showed up and they may not recall the many details of this story that now dates from seven years ago. most of the courtroom action will be about selecting 12 jurors and 6 alternates. this day ended with no jurors selected yet. this first day of the trial, immediately dove into evidence about donald trump's potential criminal motive. lawyers clashing over how to

reference that infamous access hollywood tape which prosecutors say motivated president trump to pay off stormy daniels by election day for a campaign purpose. that's one sign of the fireworks to come. which could captivate the jury, and the nation watching. so here we are. april 15th, 2024. now sets a legal precedent and marks american history. other people who have served as president have been investigated impeached, and accused of all kinds of wrongdoing. but none, none of them ever ended up at that defendant's table for a criminal trial where donald trump sat today. this is not a forum where the defendant has control. the judge is in charge and the jury decides. and that was clear immediately today as defendant trump sat largely subdued and motionless his public outburst mooted and

political bluster on hiatus. legally, donald trump is presumed innocent, the burden of proof is on prosecutors alone. but starting tonight and in the week ahead, americans will be presented with this moment his trial, the evidence, the testimony, both sides of the case. no one really knows what comes next, we don't know what the legal outcome will be. we don't know how a mistrial which would not convict the defendant we don't know how that would land with voters. or if a trump conviction would bring a jail sentence. or if a conviction would impact voters. overall donald trump does face four total indictments we have covered that. remember, three of them turn on alleged election crimes. crimes about abusing and trying to get or hold onto power. those three in d.c., georgia and new york. this new york case happens to be the first prosecution to go to trial. and it could very well, the only one to go to trial before

this year's elections. so the stakes really could not be higher. our whole panel is here to get into this i want to bring in rachel who joins us on remote first rachel, what does today apartment start of the trial mean? >> first of all i think it was an excellent summary. i think you put those stakes exactly right. i mean, it took us a long time to get here. the origin of this case is you know, ahead of the 2016 election that's been a long time and it's a scandal i think. that's part of what i will talk about on my show tonight at 9:00 p.m. eastern. but we did get here. the wheels of justice grind slowly. i did not think they would grind so slowly that they would rock the defendant apparently to sleep. at the defense table today. i mean. i have to say, i was not there, i do not know if he was asleep. it is possible he was you know

meditating. or just resting his eyes or something. i don't know. but that -- those headlines the front page of the "new york times" and front page of the washington post and huffington post and multiple news outlets come out of this that trump appeared to fall asleep on the first day of his trial. those are going to stick. i mean, i know it's not the most important legal thing, but we are in the middle of a campaign. and the you know the age issue is the main thing that trump campaign wants to use against his opponent sleepy joe. this is, as you said, this is the most historic thing that donald trump has ever done. no president ever has -- no former president ever has been a criminal defendant and on day one headlights coming out are that he appeared to doze off. to me, that's -- i mean, it's insane. it's also reminder of how scary however scary and somber and important this is where we are dealing with somebody who is

just fundamentally about a fumeish and this is a reminder of that as it is of all the more serious things here that are at stake. this is a guy, we have had mentions today of the one alleged mist mistress and other and doorman is making the allegations about the alleged love child with the third alleged mistress. and then i mean, the crux of this is not who he slept with, the crux is his alleged criminal conspiracy with the national enquirer. i mean, this really is a fundamentally bafunish person and this will be in the mind of the american people staying awake in court might have diverted, but, this is what we have got. you go to the election with the candidates you have. >> and rachel, this goes as you say back to 16. so one more question and i think chris looked like he wanted to react to your point about the courtroom decorum.

but on 2016 you advised everybody from all the way back then watch what they do not what they say even when what they say is so outrageous it sometimes parents understandable reaction. what he says is illite testify. he says bring it on but what he does is try every which way chug in a final losing motion this morning, to prevent the very judgment day in this process that we are now going to cover. >> yes, that's exactly right. the motions to delay and recuse the judge and move the venue and move to federal court to get the charges thrown out, i mean these are all things that a defendant is eligible to try. right in defendants have lot of rights and they can exercise all of them without prejudice against the case but he is desperate to make it go away. and back to the original investigation when he had control of the u.s. justice department in particular when he had his guy bill barr in the

u.s. justice department bill barr took remarkable, think national scandal level steps to try to make this investigation and this case go away on trump's behalf. there's a reason this case is bothered him from the beginning. and you know, again, watch how they behave when confronted with it not what they say when they try to dismiss its importance. >> just to rachel a point about the campaign dynamics. oics and the sustained eye resting that apparently happened in the courtroom. i mean i feel like if you call your opponent sleepy joe you have one job. >> stay awake. >> for the rest of the campaign. you have to get the puppies open at all time. but it's interesting to imagine, again, this man, who i think is not a particularly regulated emotion individual and doesn't have mast arery discipline in a situation he doesn't control things. in which he doesn't control the pace of the conversations are happening outside of his pervow but he has to watch.

it is, i really can't think of a thing that's more night mayorish for him at a personal level of like, you don't have the stimulus and you are not getting ego bumps from some social media replies. and you got to sit and watch this day after day. i mean this was day one. this is weeks and weeks of this. so at the most sort of human level, i was just watching the reports today and thinking about just the sheer psychological torture. i really mean this, and the point he keeps making which is, true although not for the reasons he says, which is he's not on the campaign trail talking to people. he is not doing events with like, you know, the farm in michigan or whatever swing state he is in a courtroom where he is accused of serious crimes and until any war serious case will be presented. >> i was struck by the visual of him in the courtroom. cameras are not in the courtroom we didn't see it but we saw the photo of him in the courtroom. he looks small in that photo. rough. >> a little rough. >> a little rough i think it's

fair to say but he was treated and every defendant would have been treated that's how the justice system should work. he worked down the same dark dingy hallways others did and he had to face the judge and answer some simple questions. and that's not him to chris's point, controlling his narrative and spouting out to the public. and that's struck me. i was surprised by that. the other thing i thought was striking is this whole case is short-handed, right as the hush money case we are talking about so many legal cases the hush money case, the hush money case, and today, it brought to the surface not just the details about this particular case, but karen mcdougal and paying off as rachel mentioned, national enquirer, paying off people to prevent stories from emerging. that tells you that's a character case there. so, if you are looking at the fact of the backdrop as a mythical campaign, we don't know what the politics will be. but i wouldn't say this was a particularly good visual optics day for donald trump. >> can we just go back to the

sleeping. a republican said to me at 2:30 after maggie appeared on cnn who was -- maggie is in the courtroom a lot of our reporters and my show are from the overflow room and maggie reported that he slumped and fell asleep for a moment. now, i have a newborn and fall asleep everywhere except live tv. i have a mountain of sympathy. >> it's deeply relatable to be clear. >> the entire crux of the campaign against joe biden not just on tv and stomp speeches but smears and attack and malining is about his feebleness and donald trump fell asleep on the first day of his criminal trial and if the parties were flipped that would be every where. >> oh, my gosh. >> and it just for me the asymmetry of the moment was in such stark contrast when republican saying what are you going to do about trump falling asleeve. you have 11 sources. maggie is on cnn saying it. the other thing about today is trump is running on the crimes

he was charged with in the -- he is running on the insurrection and starts rallies with the insurrectionists and me together. he is running on stealing classified documents saying what you are president you can do it. he is not running on having sex with stormy mcdaniels and paying the national enquirer to catch and kill the stories because he doesn't want the facts in front of the country. >> rachel, you are nodding. go ahead. >> i was going to say on the national enquirer part of it, things we learned about the -- the fact that the national enquirer has to be central to somebody who wants to be president is insane. details of it, he had, and this was discussed subsequently in court when they went through the pending motion before they started interviewing the potential jurors. is you know, can we talk mr. justice, in the case can we

present evidence about the ongoing scheme that trump arranged with the parent company of the national enquirer where they would pay money to people to bury negative stories about donald trump to keep them out of the press at large. right that's not just keeping them out of the national enquirer. it's keeping from telling the story to anybody. but also, trump coordinating with them to produce stories that were against his opponents and we remember what those were right? ted cruz's dad killed jfk. i mean they are alongside the alien abductions and all this stuff. this is the level at which trump was operating. this is the way that trump tried to get himself into the white house. and that coordination if it was towards a campaign purpose and not just for a pr purpose but specifically to try to get him into the white house to help him win the campaign as you pointed out at the top of the show. that's arguably criminal ami the parent company was given

limited immunity from being charged itself in that regard. in exchange for testimony about what trump did. michael cohen went to prison because of his role in helping along a scheme along the same lines. and i mean, this is -- it's criminal and that's why he is here as the defendant but it's also profoundly, profoundly embarrassing. indefensible and something he can't run on and can't turn no a positive. it's taughtry and embarrassing and central to the story which is going to rivet the country for the next eight weeks. >> alex. >> i was struck by a couple things. the resting of the eyes which i will just you know i will go with the standard and say that rather than sleeping. but you know, for people who have sat on a sidelines and watched in horror sort of a going at the impunity with which he conducts himself in person and online. the truth social tweets were read in a criminal courtroom

today. in the context of the gag order. here's domed trump's truth social tweets being read back to him in a criminal courtroom in way that may affect the scope of the trial that could theoretically land him in jail for some part of this if he continues on with this language. you know, here is a transcript of the access hollywood tape where literally prosecutors saying again, in a criminal courtroom, grab them by the you know what. it is now evidence that is being introduced in a courtroom and we shouldn't lose track of the sight there's been a desire and indignation of lack of accountability. it's happening. the statements are being read to a jury or presumably will be read to a jury. they are being read in front of a judge. the other piece of it for anyone who lives in new york from new york, so much of donald trump's story is the story of a man-made in new york. and to this man donald trump

from queens, to be held accountable by a prosecutor from harlem and judge merchan when we think about the history the cast of characters is something out of a stage play right? and the poetry shouldn't be lot of on those of house care about the narrative in history into we will dig more into the special tonight can you get at fair trial in new york. you can argue he can get a fair irtrial here in other states where people would be so agased at the tabloid stories and the way it works. today people know about tabloids here. >> i read the new york post, i read the post i read the journal and times and this is new york story. >> and in fairness i mention he is presumed innocent and is not supposed to be it's so scandalous only that convicts hem but if the and the burden is on prosecution the scandal is beyond tabloid to ther to you were getting secret benefits and money collapse the

campaign finance system as we know it if everyone could get away with it. nicole and rachel raised something the loss of control and optics and substance. so we will get back into that and dig into a lot more on this case. with all our legal experts after a short break. stay with us. after a short break. stay with us. we're talking about cashbackin. not a game! we're talking about cashbacking. we're talking about... we're not talking about practice? no... cashbacking. word. we're talking about cashbacking. cashbacking. cashbacking. cashback like a pro with chase freedom unlimited. how do you cashback? when you have chronic kidney disease, there are places you'd like to be. like here. and here. not so much here. farxiga reduces the risk of kidney failure which can lead to dialysis. ♪ far-xi-ga ♪ ♪♪ farxiga can cause serious side effects,

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a lessons to you think democrats should take away from how you talked about abortion in your race. >> look at composition of the court what do you expect to happen in the supreme court and over what kind of a time frame? >> what happens if he is in situation room and everybody is a yes man and yes woman what is the danger of that. >> what else should people be doing besides casting vote in the way you see is right to try to defense the country right now? >> inside with jen psaki and rachel maddow show mondays at 9:00- we today uphold our sol sum

responsibility to ensure that everyone stands equal before the law. no amount of money and no amount of power changes that enduring american principle. >> when alvin bragg described in the stark term our special coverage continues and the panel is back with rachel, nicole, jen and chris and others joining us. and i wanted to start there because so many smart informed people debated over the past year plus which accusation against donald trump is the worst? which criminal trial should begin first? most candidates i should say in both parties don't stand currently accused of crimes are not most people who are candidates for congress are not awaiting criminal trials before the election day to reset on that. and we wanted to begin with you and that statement from da bragg it's the only time he spoke in detail when he announced the charges. because his job is not to compare and contrast the whole

country. he says there's evidence of a crime in his jurisdiction, and that's what he says is the only thing he had to think about and that's why we are here today. >> yeah, and i mean, i think we think about the timeline here, i mean, it is important to remember that these charges and some ways have sort of been in the cue, they have been lined up for five and half year since michael cohen pled guilty in federal court to federal campaign finance rye violation were committed at behest of individual one who was donald trump. i mean, this crime was described in federal court with proof to support it, nearly six years ago and what happened between then and now that finally in a different court system in new york state court, trump is finally being held accountable for a crime that

happened so blatantly and obviously and so long ago. that saga is partly the story of trump's political power. and how he chose to use his political power to protect himself inside the criminal justice system. part of it is being a serving president when they won't bring charges against you but part of it is being a serving president who uses power over the u.s. justice department to stop investigations and have federal criminal court documents whitewashed so they don't give away as much information about him as they otherwise were going to. it's been a long time in coming. the fact it has taken so long is testament to how he has been able to manipulate the u.s. department of justice and u.s. justice system broadly to his benefit. i feel like it's a miracle that we got this court -- this case into trial at all. the fact that there are three more stacked up behind it just

tells you about the litany of alleged criminality this candidate drags with him into the election season. >> well, to reach rachel's point rachel is the person i feel look he learned most on the degree to which bar and the department of justice you know acted in a scandalous fashion to hijack the normal processes so the person named as individual one would not amount to anything. but i also think when you look at chronology, there's clear trajectory and through line 2016 election was the subject of two criminal conspiracies. this criminal conspiracy pled to michael cone cohen in federal court and russian sabotage the election charged with enindictments of russian foreign nationals who were likely never face justice. after -- no one really in trump's orbit was funished for that. right. then, he tried to rerun it with ukraine in the lead up to the 2020 election which was found out and blown up and faced an

impeachment trial for which he was acquitted. didn't really face any real accountability. all that leads up to january 6th when even after losing election, he attempts again to use essentially whatever means necessary and whatever means necessary to this man he's sort of agnostic about the means it could be legal or not legal. it could be ethical or dodgy or gray area or scandalous but he is just trying to do whatever he can to obtain power. it is true in 2016 at the sort of full fact of this case and 2020 and after 2020 election. all that is one story about someone who never faces an accountability for his thirst for power and do today do anything to win after losing and this is the first of those tales. >> that goes, nicole, to why the story that the jury and buy proxy the country hears is so important. i am curious what you think but i would argue if it becomes

only a tabloid story you can probably find one or more jurors who are not there. but if it's democracy story which is da bragg said and you spoke to the evidence, it is something larger. >> it's about cheating. right? sports just within the through one of the biggest stories in a decade. the interpreter for shohei ohtani. it is a crime that everyone can understand. stealing, cheating lying. these are easy to understand crimes. and i think the reason donald trump is worked so hard to make this one not go to trial is because the jury is going to ask to figure out if he did somethings that are easy to understand. and back to rachel a point, the first people that found trump to be liable as a conspirator was the bill barr justice department and they write about how doj leadership was and editing the sentencing memo which describes trump as individual one over and over

and over again. michael cohen paid the money to individual one. and again, i am not a lawyer, but i for some reason get picked to be on juries. the jury is going to be asked to look at michael cohen who didn't have the sex with stormy daniel and didn't become president donald trump did. one of the things is not like the other. the story is a simple story about simple crimes. >> rachel, you've been invoked. go ahead. >> i was going to say i mean, nicole, i heard you say that that starkly before about michael cohen and it wigs me out but it's very true and fund minutial. >> it's super gross but we are talking about trump and it has a super gross element. >> my ears are turning red like i am getting that. sorry, raised in the suburbs very catholic can't handle it. but -- the base being idea here, is very true. think about -- think about the

fact that michael cohen went to prissan-didn't have sex with tomorrowy daniels and was not running for president why is he the one who has is the only one who's gone to prison particularly when it was not like he invented it as his idea to please the boss. it is admitted the boss advised him to do this and it was part of trump's effort to get elected to keep the information away from the public during the election. it just can't be as a fundamental matter fairness and i think nicole and you are right as a fundamental matter of fairness no jury is going to look at this and say, yeah, the one guy who should go to prison for this is the guy who had to zero out his home equity line of cred it to do this for his boss because the last time the boss had to pay hush money to another alleged mistress he stiffed the tabloid publisher who put the money up for him that time. this time i got to do it. you are the one who must be

punished. it doesn't make sense a crime described and admitted to and litigated in court, and the one who ends up -- only one who ends up in jail is michael cohen. >> and i think that's what we heard from people around the da's office they are confident cohen is in the a perfect witness. i don't know if he could claim he is. but they are confident about that fact pattern holding up and the corroboration. rachel and anything we should know about what you are doing at 9:00 tonight? >> oh, you know, talking too much and busting through the commercial like i always do. i am going to be -- i am going to be talking about the one i think the original sin of this story which has nothing to do with sex whatsoever. the original sin, the very significant i think national level scandal that is the origin story of this case right now. and why it is the thing that i most worry about that is most front of mind when i think about a potential trump second

term. that's my lead tonight at 9:00. >> really interesting. it's monday so we will be watching rachel at 9:hundred p.m. eastern. good to see you. our panel special coverage continues we have been talking about the mueller and barr justice and cohen pros coogs and andrew weissmen is with us and joy reid joins the panel and legal experts live at the courthouse when we come back. courthouse when we come back. 's? boring. think about it. boring is the unsung catalyst for bold. what straps bold to a rocket and hurtles it into space? boring does. great job astro-persons. over. boring is the jumping off point for all the un-boring things we do. boring makes vacations happen, early retirements possible, and startups start up. because it's smart, dependable, and steady. all words you want from your bank. taking chances is for skateboarding... and gas station sushi. not banking. that's why pnc bank strives to be boring with your money.

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welcome back to special coverage on first day of defendant donald trump's criminal trial. trump wanted to avoid this day because he made many different efforts to delay it. three just last week each failed and another today as the lawyers to being a request they already lost asking this judge to step aside and reran that play to lose again in court today. joy reid has been covering all of this and joins us now and has an expert standing by hello, joy. >> hey thank you very much. let me bring in lisa ruben the wonderful msnbc legal analyst. let mow go through these in order. he want to start by talking about this process of picking a jury and the questionnaire. what questions stood out to you as being invoketive without asking what's your political affiliation are you maga or not that would evoke that for the prosecutors and defense? >> well, think obviously there

are some questions that really get at jurors political afilling as including for example ones about the media diet and others a lot more overt like have you ever attended a rally for former president trump or for an antitrump group or have you made donations in that direction. things of that nature. nobody answered the questions however in the affirmative so far. and i thought the most interesting question asked so far was, do you have strong opinions or firmly held beliefs about former president trump and the reason i think that's a really interest question is because the jump merchan proceed year allows jurors to self-identify at the beginning and say i am unable to serve here because i believe i am incapable of being fair and impartial. so, we lost over 50 people due to that question alone and they didn't have to answer anymore follow-up questions. not with standing that question, there were people who believed that they could be fair and impartial but when they got to the jury questionnaire, there were two

jurors who paused on the do you have strong opinions or firmly held beliefs. and i think that sort of foe can yous op one of the conundrums is there are people out there who believe they can be fair and impartial but nonetheless might have such strong opinions or firmly held beliefs about former president trump that one side or the other believes they are inappropriate to be on the jury. of the two jurors who answered that question in the affirmative, one of them went to a side bar with judge merchan and parties and were excused. and the other answered the question before a side bar and said, very clearly, i don't believe anyone is above the law, and not a former president and not a janitor that person is still within the perspective jury pool whether he will stay, remains to be seen tomorrow. joy. >> let me go to really quickly. i know that there's a certain number of penalty preemptory challenge where they can say i don't want the juror i did the

prosecution or defense use any of those kind of challenges? >> it doesn't appear that they have yet. the one juror who was struck for reasons that looked like political affiliation or beliefs, that person was actually struck initially at the suggestion of judge merchan when she said that she had strong beliefs or firmly held opinions about former president trump judge merchan said i believe we should excuse the juror do parties have objections and the d's office say they didn't and at that point former president trump's lawyers wanted to follow up with the jury. you might want to ask yourself why would they care don't they want the person gone too? well, they might care because they are trying to show an appellate proceedings that former president trump cannot get a fair trial here in manhattan. to the extent they can suck out from this person what their firmly held opinions are, they want to know if they are for

donald trump, doesn't harm them. but if they are antitrump add it to the pile of things they have to complain about at conclusion of the trial, joy. >> lisa rubin thank you very much. always so valuable our mvp at the courthouse. back to you. >> stay with me. i want to read a couple more questions because we are learning things for the first time. the jury questions are relatively new and today's the first time we saw them put to anyone. and so, jurors are asked for example we have been talking about michael cohen. they are asking these jurors whether they consumed cohen's books. or a podcast and if they have opinions about the legal issue of whether an expresident can be charged by new york state, and then the big one can you promise to set aside anything you heard to render a verdict based on the evidence. and so joy part of this is really human rather than lawyerly. these are human, not lawyers for the most part. answering the questions. and they have to think back not just in theory you say the

right answer i am fair but in practice have you seen michael cohen on i don't know, joy reid's show, or a different show or podcasts. what do you think about that because new yorkers they might think wait maybe i have. does it affect me. >> no it's interesting because michael cohen is a prolific interview eand we interviewed him and ever everyone talked to him and he is open about talking about the case. there's good chance that a lot of people have seen him. i don't know that that necessarily means somebody couldn't be impartial. i recently did sit through this process as a prospective juror you know surprise, surprise i didn't make it on the jury. but i always find it interesting when you sit in those rooms people take it very seriously. and there are people who will surprise you that seem when they tell their story, when they answer the questions, that in a way would seem to indicate maybe there's bias they still make it on the jury. you know, i was surprised when i sat through the process, you know at some of the people who still got on. so we don't really understand

the reasons why a prosecutor or defense witness. they might say the person watches fox news for instance but they steam to be somebody who digs deep when it comes to information. or they are particularly pay rotic and feel they take very serious duty of being on a jury and they put them on. so you know, and i am not a lawyer but i interview them on t-v, you are a lawyer, but i think it's very true when people say you win or lose the cases in the. >> reporter: deer. who you pick is what you get. this part of the process while it may not be the most exciting part of the process for everyone, in many ways, it's the ball game. can i ask a dumb question. >> there are no dumb questions. >> so, we called it a questionnaire and think the way that you think of that is a physical thing you fill out. but, it's being done live dynamically as a form of sort of interviews. and i am curious, why? why does that do from an

efficiency standpoint, again, efficiency. >> as ofoesed to writing answers on a piece of paper. >> correct if it's efficiency and that's not the name of the game the judge merchan has made a few choices to speed up process. the first declared at the outset he would let people leave if they didn't think they could do it and he let i think 50 people go today for that reason. he made some some to the normal process. what is -- i guess the idea is in the questioning of the jury you are seeing stuff physically right reactions pauses, that wouldn't be there if they were fill out a physical questionnaire. >> two big parts and we have andrew weissmann and get in more detail, but one is the court which we mean the larger process has a deep interest in getting this right. you are not taking anyone's word for it. you want to get them on record which by the way means that they are telling this to the government a court so they have that liability.

and the court has expertise so you will see people all the time and think they are clever and i will try this and try that to get off a jury and sometimes because they want to be on. >> i try to get off and i get on. >> because they probably see you as. >> trying to get off. >> trying to get off or otherwise capable of being honest. it's doing a real vetting and number two, we have to remember we will cover both sides for weeks and it's an adersarial process and both sides get to kick the tires on the answers as you know. >> yeah. >> i didn't answer them right. i have been picked -- i have been called to duty and been picked both times. >> it's stunning seeing the reporting from inside the courtroom that donald trump was following along right with a questionnaire as it was being asked. and if you haven't followed the process before, i have never been picked for a jury and now i am going to be. it's fascinating. you have the chief the defendant here who is the former president of the united states. you have just normal people who are answering the questions and

the president the former president of the united states kind of following along. >> i love that i love that for you i love that for america. >> and for donald trump. >> and i love it for america. >> because they see it happening. i just mean it stunning to be a person sitting on the jury and have former president sitting there watching and following along. >> and hearing from normal people about their ability to be impartial or to be. >> when he was not resting his eyes. >> right. >> well, when this system works, that citizens answer and what they will decide of his fate matters as much as yes, the former president. we are going to fit in break but a quick look at andrew weissmann the former mueller prosecutor can we -- chomping at the bit and he will after this break. will after this break. (voya)♪ there are some things that work better together. like your workplace benefits and retirement savings. voya helps you choose the right amounts without over or under investing. so you can feel confident in your financial choices voya, well planned, well invested, well protected.

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we are back as our special coverage continues and chris has a special guest. >> i do. in fact, joining us now, the aforementioned andrew weissman. this is the first crack we get at you. your top line thoughts of what we saw today. >> top line thought is that this country that likes to think that it is a country that values the rule of law and is unique in the world has finally joined other western democracies in being able to show they can hold even former leaders who have held the

most exalted position in the government, that they can hold them to account. and subject them to a fair trial where there are good lawyers on both sides and a fair judge and the standard of proof is the highest that we have in the criminal justice system. and we are joining now many others, western democracies, in showing we can actually apply the rule of law. we think of ourselves as american exceptionalists. this is nice to see this day has arrived. >> if you had to rank today, most of your life has been in federal court. this is a new york court. did a rank on a sort of one being like very, very standard and normal. just in terms of what was happening and ten being unlike anything you've seen. like where are those parameters

was this first day for you? >> for a high profile matter, this was normal. >> a normal, high profile case. >> so high profile cases where you have such as enron or you have you know, the manifort case. some case where it's received national attention. having sort of many, many jurors brought in. having a jury questionnaire. whether it's filled out in writing. that is standard procedure. now that, there aren't that many national cases, so of course this is unusual. but the process is one that i was going oh, i'm used to this. i've seen this happen. it seemed very normal to me. >> let me ask you about one of the legal dust ups that happened today around the access hollywood tape and its general

admissibility. i think talk about a little bit, they went back and forth on which part could be shown to the jury. and what's interesting to me is the context here is about motive. one of the things people forget is he was hanging on by his fingernails. afterwards. i mean, we had like, what was it, jason chafe its on our air, i can't look my daughter again in the eyes. his daughter again. but what was the dispute there and what got resolved? >> so, the first thing the government needs to show is that proof that it wants to offer is relevant and then the second thing is even if it's relevant, it can't be sort of undually prejudicial. the court's going to be looking to see if there's more benign way for the evidence to come in that doesn't have sort of spillover prejudice. so here as you said, the access hollywood tape was sort of the substance of it was clearly going to come in because it is

the state's main argument for the motive for why this happened. and why it is that they were so concerned about more bad news coming out at this time. that would further peel back this truth of who donald trump is. that's going to be the theory. and so the back and forth was sort of how much of that could come in and what form and i'd say judge merchan somewhat split the baby. he gave the state what it needed to make that argument but said that the actual tape at least as of now, unless the defense sort of open it is door to it, the actual hearing of donald trump saying those words will not be played but we will be able to actually have the transcript of what was said. >> you said split the baby in half. as i was watching this, they sort of gave a little bit to each side in that ruling. andrew weissman, such a pleasure. thank you, sir. >> you're welcome.

>> shutout to king solomon with the minute we have left. again, in fairness to the defendant, they won't play the worst possible thing, the awful video, but just the evidence of it. >> i think alvin brag and judge merchan are difficult villain frs trump. if he plans to make this the center piece of his campaign, it's not going to be very exciting for the people paying attention to events. that doesn't include his base. they're not paying attention to events. vaughn had some great reporting today. he was at a rally with 5,000 trump supporters. trump said there were 42,000. so that's not who's going to be affected by anything that happens. but for the magic of american politics, they're not going to see particularly honest figures in judge merchan, alvin bragg. these are not actors. they do the boring things that make the rule of law grind.

i was walking around new york, i didn't run into a single new yorker going about their lives that had any idea this was happening. one of the most remarkable things at 7:00 in the east, i don't think anything really happened. donald trump, day one, lots more news cycles, more twists and turns but on the first day, the earth still stands. >> yeah. earth one. >> earth one. that's right. >> coffee mug coming, potentially. >> right. >> really interesting points. our special coverage continues plus jen psaki, plus rachel at 9:00, plus lawrence. we'll be right back. 9:00, plus lawrence. we'll be right back.

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good evening. our special coverage on this first day of the first ever criminal trial of an ex-president continues and our all-star panel is here. lawrence o'donnell, chris hayes, joy reid. the manhattan d.a. charges donald trump's 2016 cover up as a felony plot. this hour, we're going to dig into something we didn't get to last hour. the two key reasons that the d.a. says he can convict trump along those lines. those two pieces. there's also the clash inside the courtroom today as prosecutors say trump broke the gag order. we'll get to that later, but we begin with how defendant trump is struggling to run his campaign while stuck inside this courtroom today. a challenge partly of the defendant's own making because he is the one who over and over delayed this and other cases. now he's in one at this unfortunate time period for him.

today, we learned trump must be present for the whole trial that could run six weeks or more. the judge ruled against trump's request to skip certain days. the campaign does plan more traditional events on weekends and using the court's off day, wednesdays, for fund raising. the tension with the schedule goes way beyond the calendar. evidence shows voters are repelled by this damning evidence and that may be why trump delayed and delayed today from happening earlier. it's also why he's accused rivals in both parties of supposed crimes and why most people view this trial and the claims here as pretty serious. many republicans say they would oppose trump if he were ultimately convicted. those views are a reminder that many people oppose legislating a convicted felon to the white house and defer to the courts, not public debate or hyperbole,

to actually find out if any given defendant running for office is guilty. i want to bring in our panel starting with the aforementioned lawrence o'donnell. >> great to be here. >> we talk a lot in the words of law, legality and crime. people talk about the insurrection like a crime, but the polling suggests a lot of people are waiting for the court system to decide. >> i don't think it has any impact on his campaign schedule at all. he's already the laziest presidential campaigner in history. this is a presidential campaign that can go days on end doing nothing. or putting out a video that takes eight minutes of his time at home. and we saw how he's going to campaign. he's going to go up to those microphones which they should not have in the courthouse, and he's going to campaign in the courthouse every day. before the trial, after the trial. you've never seen a criminal

defendant get that option before of yeah, whenever you're walking in or out of the courtroom, we're going to make sure there's a whole camera bank and microphones for you as a criminal defendant to say whatever you want about the case. the giant problem with that is donald trump is not going to testify. not going to testify in any of his cases, especially not this one. but he is in effect going to testify in the courthouse every single day by going out to the only thing we can see since we're not allowed in the courtroom of cameras. he's going to be the only televised participant in this trial and everything he says out there would be as you know, inadmissible in the courtroom and it will all be relevant to the courtroom. it will be relevant to the way people perceive what's going on in the courtroom and the d.a. is not going to follow him to that microphone. there is no plan at all in the

d.a.'s office to how do you counter a criminal defendant going to a national microphone every single day minimum of twice. and their answer to that is we don't know. we work in the courtroom. the minimal thing that should have been established is that that microphone set up isn't there in the courthouse. that the judge could have controlled. they didn't. so the guy who will never testify under oath will be out there at the microphone campaigning in effect every day of the trial. >> and joy is still with us as we look at that campaign contrast, your thoughts on both what lawrence says and the pitfall for trump, that if he actually did what he claims he would do and testified, he'd be out of control. subject to the rules of evidence and might not go as well. >> it might not go as well and i think lawrence makes a really good point. there is the donald trump lazyness aspect of it, but he's not lazy when it comes to

talking and running his mouth. this is terrible for the campaign because the facts in this case as sort of slimy as they are, take us back to the first time he ran and the problem that began the very month he began running for president. i went back over what michael cohen was charged with by the jeff sessions donald trump justice department by the way. this was not by some liberal justice department. michael cohen was charged by donald trump's justice department. in june of the year donald trump begins running for president, june of 2015, he starts running. michael cohen doesn't join the campaign, but they give him a campaign e-mail. within the very first month of donald trump's first campaign, he and david pecker start talking about squashing any stories that might be negative regarding women. they start doing that. fast forward to the following summer, you have karen mcdougle

come out in june and start saying she was going to talk. they buy her limited life rights, or offer to. for $125,000. we're not talking about the june before the election. they can't even close that deal before stormy daniels says she's going to talk, too. let me read this quick thing. this is from the michael cohen indictment. cohen caused and made the payments described here, that's to through david pecker to karen mcdougle and to stormy daniels in order to influence the 2016 presidential election. in doing so, we coordinated with one or more members of the campaign including through meetings and phone calls about the fact, nature, and timing of the payments. as a result of the payments solicited and made by cohen, neither woman won nor wanted to speak to the press prior to the election. they charged him with campaign

finance violations, ari, and named donald trump without using his name as individual one. the problem for donald trump is that all of the facts in this case as sort of the, gross as they are for us to think about, all go to the fact that the entirety of his initial campaign for president was plagued by this one issue. of his relationships outside of his marriage with women. and then you get to october when the access hollywood tape drops. it's very clear when you just read the cohen indictment that this was a crisis for donald trump's campaign. it's very hard to get outside of these facts. you can say whatever you want about michael cohen. the reason he's a convicted of felon. he was not before he did this for donald trump. everything he did that is a crime that they're going to try to use to impeach him, he did for individual one. so every fact in this case is

going to be both unnerving to independent voters who will be reminded and jogged back into their original vision of donald trump as this undisciplined cheater who cheats on his marriage and he cheated in the election. >> it's a problem. i hate to ever disagree with lawrence o'donnell but i'm going to this in moment because i do think, we've talked about this little bit. the more sometimes you see donald trump, the more people see donald trump, the more we saw sleepy donald trump today a little bit. he didn't say anything particularly memorable at the cameras. he may in the days to come, but he may say things that are very crazy. that may influence voters. rachel mentioned this, too, the national enquirer of this all, which is a big part of this story, we have loughlin cartwright on tonight on the show, he wrote it was the 13-page statement of facts that brought me to tears.

right. this is a guy who's the number two at the national enquirer. because of the role they played in catch and kill. not just one story, mull multiple stories. t that tells you a lot about who donald trump is. we don't know how the public will consume it. new yorkers aren't talking about it on the streets today, but it does tell you about his character. his willingness to do anything as chris said earlier, to hold on to power. >> the other piece of it is we're going to get some new information here. bragg is not just going to have michael cohen there on the witness stand for weeks on end. he's bringing in, we have a list of potential witnesses. karen mcdougle, keith davidson. the entire editorial infrastructure of ami and the national enquirer. dave pecker. dylan howard. jeffrey mcconnie, the comptroller for the trump organization. these people have new perspective on a very tawdry story and like if there's one thing this country likes is a

great story. >> can i two more? madeleine westerhouse and hope hicks. madeleine sat outside the oval office. she saw everybody who went in, out, she could look through a little peephole in the oval office and see who was in there. she knows a lot. hope hicks was on every call he was on. we will certainly learn more about how they discussed this strategically and that seems to be part of the story. >> the point of how important this was for the trump campaign. this issue was something that trump was trying to use against hillary clinton's candidacy because of her husband and so we'll recall that at the debates, it was donald trump who decided i'm going to invite women who have made accusations against bill clinton. that was his debate strategy. invite women as guests of the trump side of the debate.

who have made accusations against bill clinton. that's how important donald trump and the trump campaign believed this issue was and he did that before, before they purchased stormy daniels' silence. so he's the guy who's brought these women. now stormy daniels might be coming out in the last couple of weeks in the campaign and telling her story. we have to stop that because that will destroy that debate strategy of bringing those women. >> i also think to circle back to where you started at the polling about how people are evaluating this. i think lawrence, you're right. you're going to get the sort of unfettered trump will be at the cameras and what will be happening inside the courtroom will be under the rules of evidence, but off camera. still a tawdry and like gross story. my instinct is that ultimately like the outcome and the verdict matters more than anything. like, it just seems to me, if i

had to bet, what will be the political effect of this is a guilty verdict will hurt him considerably and something short of that won't. or it might help him. i mean, so my going into this, my that's my level setting is that the people that are persuadable are the mushy middle, are kind of looking from guidance from the system to say what it determines is the question. >> that's such a part of our legal history. when you think of the courtroom dramas. people have an idea and a story they've been sold about this process working and the verdict mattering. i'm curious what you think about that and the echoes of history here that sometimes it's okay to be cliche because it's true. the cover up did foul them up. following the money from cohen to the white house. >> exactly.

>> his defense is simply going to be cross-examination points scored. attempted to be scored by his lawyers to suggest this money was for something else. the trump money, those trump checks to michael cohen were not for stormy daniels. and you can't put trump on the witness stand because he could not survive cross-examination on that particular point. never mind all the other stuff and evidence. but that's the whole defense. is can we get out of this. with reasonable doubt about why donald trump signed his names to, his name to all of those checks for michael cohen. that's the entire defense. there is no other defense. so it's you know, it's a very, it's a very thin reed to hang a defense on but that's what it comes back to the issue of the defense only needs one juror to get a hung jury.

>> you're brilliantly previewing what we're going to discuss with noah. >> you should have told me you were doing that. i would have talked about what a beautiful day it was at the white house. i got to say trump, april 4th, 2023, was the most beautiful day of 2023 as of that point on the calendar. the day trump showed up at this courthouse for the first time as a criminal defendant. i was down there walking among his fans. it was very, very pleasant. there were a dozen today. maybe two dozen, a generous account of who was there. i walked down. the only exercise i get is walking the courthouse, walking back. it was as empty and quiet and peaceful as you can possibly could have expected which is the perfect monday to follow the opening weekend of a movie in america called civil war that pretends this country would be

willing to go to war over that freak who couldn't get, remember, 85,000 trump voters in manhattan alone, right, none of them were down there. there's 2 million of them if you include a little bit of new jersey within an hour of here including long island. you got i don't know, to be generous, two dozen down there. very quiet. very peaceable. no hints of a blood bath. i don't think they had blood bath on their mind. i said it when he said it that he's lying about the blood bath, just like everything else. so the energy that trump wants out there, literally on the street, about what an outrage this is, does not exist anywhere in the country because it's legal to protest this in boise, idaho if you want to. you could all gather there in the center of idaho and had your big, first day protest. nowhere in america, not one. two dozen people near the courthouse. >> it's a great point and also

undercuts some of the threats and generalized anxiety we heard from certain people. some legal establishment people in past years. what would happen as lawrence reminds us right now. this. people would go about their day. we'll have a fair trial. and thank you for the weather reporting. i didn't know that side of you. >> what was today? best day of the year so far. weatherwise, best day of 2024 so far. >> multiple talents. >> he does have a touch with the weather. the first day of criminal process. >> all fair points. i want to remind folks what is coming up. we have the breakdown of the two key parts of the prosecution's case. maya makes her debut tonight. stay with us. h us ♪♪

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welcome back to our special coverage of the first day of donald trump's criminal trial. he's indicted for lies. it says clearly those lies became crimes when trump and his company falsified records to hide the truth. the stack of things on the screen boils down to the meeting and money turned into a bunch of documented written lies, falsified invoices, et cetera. that became a felony the d.a. argues by trying to advance a second crime. some of this evidence is just

proven already. for example, prosecutors have trump on tape planning these pams the very thing he then denied and that now infamous response on air force one. >> did you know about the 130,000 payment to stormy daniels? >> that was false. today's trial builds on that history and argues as prosecutors wrote in the original indictment that becomes the trial today that this was a larger scheme. tonight, we can tell you those receipts are coming back to haunt the defendant. joy, as an expert on hand to help explain it all. >> let's bring in the great maya wily, former assistant u.s. attorney and let's get right to these question of these lies.

in order for donald trump to be acquitted in this case, would he not have to somehow convince a jr. that michael cohen by himself perhaps working with david pecker of the national enquirer came up with this catch and kill scheme for his own benefit because there is no other explanation as lawrence o'donnell has said. >> lawrence o'donnell is right. you are right, joy. the way we would say it though to put it in the legal framework is different. because it's the people of the state of new york. i want us to keep remembering it's the people of the state of new york that have brought this indictment. the jury of donald trump's peers and a grand jury that essentially have ensured we are here. but the burden is on the new york district attorney's office to prove beyond a reasonable

doubt. now, i do think there is much evidence here to prove that and this is what we should hone in on. you said it earlier, i want to reenforce it. how does the prosecution do that. it does that because it's not only what michael cohen is going to say. and to ari's point, it's because there's so much corroborating evidence including that access hollywood, not just the tape itself, but the evidence that i think is going to corroborate some of what is crucial here to make sure that there is a jury that says hmm, right. exactly what you're saying. why would michael cohen be doing this? what is the interest? because the first thing that the judge in this case, judge merchan is saying to the jurors, is the allegation here is that donald trump falsified business records. that's proven. that's clear.

it was that meeting in august, that meeting that two of the people in that meeting are going to be witnesses in this case. that is david pecker and michael cohen. that establishes the agreement as long as the jury believes the witnesses, right? then once you have the agreement? what's it for? it's to conceal the fact and these are the words that are going to come from the judge, that come from the judge. to conceal the agreement to unlawfully influence the 2016 election. so that goes back to your . point as why would michael cohen do that? how does he benefit from that? he does not benefit from this agreement. donald trump is the one who benefitted and the witnesses we

believe will be lined up are the ones like hope hicks who was on the campaign and we know from the search warrant from the southern district of new york that the precise times of calls calls that we know that the district attorney is looking at to establish hope hicks as a campaign operative actively and consistently in communication with michael cohen including a call that donald trump was on. right? all of this evidence to your point unless there is some way that the defense can suggest that this is for, by michael cohen and only in his own interest, which is kind of hard to do, unless donald trump tries to say it was all about melania, i was just worried about melania, but how do you get that evidence in? he'd have to take the stand and as we know, the minute he would

do that, which is very hard to imagine happening, that opens the door for the prosecution to eat his lunch. >> yeah. okay, so there is that. the facts of the case and the background. atmospherics. this is the atmospherics that donald trump wants to be a part of this case. the trump make america great again i guess pack sent out this morning. an attack on d.a. alvin bragg. attacking him, attacking him as george tsiros' favorite prosecutor, then going at length into what they are, what they're alleging are his soft on crime positions of not prosecuting this case and not prosecuting that case. trying to tie him to escalating crime. which is not even happening. crime is down in new york. i would love for you to comment on that because that has been a thematic for donald trump and for other maga conservatives.

of attacking prosecutors they consider to be too liberal. alvin bragg is a quiet prosecutor. he's not been out there talking. he's not an ostentatious prosecutors yet he's still under this kind of attack. >> well, you can run a campaign any way you want including with misinformation and as we know, this is also deeply tinged in what you said, joy. it's tinged with racism and antisemitism. those are tropes and we should be very concerned about that. at the end of the day, elections have consequences and the election of bragg as the first black district attorney in manhattan who pledged and was elected by voters in manhattan to do exactly what he's done. which is to say i'm going to go after rich people. the same way everyone has been going after poor people including black people and latinos. when they commit crimes. and this is the same district

attorney who remember, was pillaring because he wouldn't bring a criminal indictment on the issues that trump org was convicted on. we've seen a civil case that tish james brought. that proves that bragg is bringing the cases he thinks are most likely to be just prosecutions that he can prove. this is the one he brought after turning down another one because he's doing what people. >> reporter: were electing him to do. >> former u.s. assistant district attorney and our friend, thank you very much. back to you, ari. >> thank you, joy, and maya. jen, before we lose you, your thoughts on the fact that part one of this case is showing that trump not only lied but he lied to the government on paper in these business records. >> well, i think that's what

they're proving but it is reminding people of the facts, that detail. one of the things maya said, we're learning a lot about bragg over the course of the last several months. as she noted early on, he was under enormous pressure of course. there was a memo from mark pomeranz. he spoke about it to file a criminal case. he didn't. was criticized. that would have been the easier political thing for him to do. he didn't do it. and now we're seeing he's kind of maybe this like super meticulous guy. he clearly has done a lot of work and thought in terms of determining whether he was going to move forward on this. it's interesting because he was projected as this person who was slow, who wasn't going to act. he has acted. this is the only criminal case we're seeing now in a trial in trump in the courtroom. but overall, ari, andrew kind of made this point earlier. is that at the end of the day, donald trump was in a courthouse today. this has been the wheels of

justice have moved very, very slowly. years slowly. but he was in a courthouse today. he's been trying to obfuscate, delay. >> to your point, this day was not certain. georgia is a big case. jack smith has a strong case. the fact the table had trump sitting there and now being told by the judge you will keep sitting there. this is the first time that's happened in any jurisdiction. so let you run to prepare your show. lawrence stays. joy is here, chris and alex is here. maya is here and stephanie ruhl joins us after this. ruhl joins us after this. good to go off the grid. good to go nonstop. with cabenuva, there's no pausing for daily hiv pills. for adults who are undetectable, cabenuva is the only complete, long-acting hiv treatment you can get every other month. it's two injections from a healthcare provider.

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less than two weeks before the presidential election, michael cohen wired $200,000 to daniels' lawyer. the scheme violated new york election law. >> d.a. bragg there speaking in his only remarks since this historic indictment. he was discussing the election law part of this case. stephanie joins the panel. we should note prosecutors say trump has already broken the new gag order. lawyers clashed over that today. trump has of course publicly attacked witnesses and the judge's daughter. today, the judge scheduled a separate argument on that for next week but it's in the slowing down the process because they went forward on discussing

the evidence and those jurors. i want to bring in our full panel. stephanie, welcome. nice to see you. >> great to be here. >> your thoughts on everything and this idea that they have to deal with trump allegedly breaking the gag order while also moving forward on the trial. >> they do and for the time being, he's not worried. trump is the grand chief chaos agent. he distracts. makes all this noise. he has proven to himself that all press is good press because until you, he hasn't faced consequences. not for the impeachment, robert mueller. so he's making all of this noise and saying a lot of things that aren't true, that are violating the gag order that has a lot of people just justifiably upset. once this laundry list of witnesses are sworn under oath giving testimony, that's when the rubber is going to hit the road and all this special treatment is going to fall away because we're going to watch the

truth come out. >> lawrence, i'm curious what you think about that. because in the ag case, he initially said i'm not testifying. they didn't jump on it and try to make it look unfair but they increased the fines then eventually, he did comply and sat for that deposition. he has folded before and sat for a day or two. now it looks like he'll be sitting there for weeks on end. >> so, you know, the only reason some of the encourageables in my catholic schools were controllable at all was because you could expel us. you could kick us out. >> so you were one of them. >> i got kicked out once, okay? only once. ended up going to more than one high school. donald trump knows no one can put a former president of the united states in jail. cannot be done. secret service does not know how to do it. they can't go out to rikers, make that work. he knows nothing.

nothing he does will make this judge put him in jail. now the ultimate penalty is what he forms all the lesser penalties. when you know you can get kicked out of a school, there's a bunch of things you can do to not get up to that line. he knows he won't be sentenced to rikers so he can do anything else he wants because the fine is going to be 1,000 a hit when you're violating these things. he can pay whatever fine they want to impose. so i think his lawyers have wisely told him yeah, you're right, donald. none of these judges, none of them, they won't enforce any actual gag orders against him and asking for them to be enforced is not to recognize what's going on here when you have presidents who get lifetime secret service protection. now when they were writing the law, didn't cross anyone's mind to say unless you are convicted of a crime or you know. they could have. if they were writing it now,

someone would suggest that. but no one thought that at the time. it was pre nixon when this was written. so you can't send, you know, two dozen secret service agents to jail with him. it's just not doable. that's the part that he knows. nothing's enforceable between -- >> you're talking about, and right now in the pretrial detention. >> yes. i'm talking about sentencing in the end, too. >> in the end, if he were, chris, if he's sentenced and it goes over to supreme court and it is affirmed, then you have an orderly process like you do with other cases where you might figure out the system. i think it's certainly true you're not going to just send him off to rikers tomorrow like you would any other defendant. >> i think what lawrence is saying is true. i think there's a bluff calling nature to the thing. i think he has convinced himself wrongly that all attention is good attention, even negative attention. i think a huge part of the republican party has bought into

that even though it hasn't worked for anyone else but him. it turns out if you go around acting like a sociopath when you're trying to convince people to vote for you, you alienate people and this obvious intro to politics has been zapped out of the minds of republican politicians and professionals. that said, i keep asking everyone who i encounter along the way on my show, i'm like, just checking in here. you were a judge for 20 years. does this happen? someone saying, like talking about your daughter? like, everyone to a person is like, no. nowhere, never. complete. this is like utterly, completely off the spectrum. >> but people gave you that exact answer while he was president for four years. >> yes, but there are, totally. but i think that there are to lawrence's point, the reason that doesn't happen in courts is because there are sanctions. again, an important point to

make here when you talk about rikers. and ari, i know this is something you've thought a lot about. most people who are in -- are in rikers. that is an enormous, that shapes all of the behavior of everyone. it shapes who wants delay and who wants speed. it shapes whether you're willing to like talk smack about the judge's daughter. all of that is the normal system, which is people with not much power facing rikers is not. >> let's bring joy in as well because we've discussed this many times. a lot of the largest prisons are housing people who are awaiting trial. as chris alluded to. >> yeah, absolutely. and one of the things that alvin bragg has done that a lot of progressives have been happy about is a lot of those prisons are the new housing for the mentally ill. rather than having to deal,

rather than actually dealing with issues of mental illness in our cities, we're using prison and jail for that. but to the point you were just making, one of my favorite facts about one of donald trump's lawyers, susan michelle, is that one of her former clients was the notorious new york mobster benny eggs. i will just assume and presume that old benny eggs was not attacking the judge. so donald trump is at this point outdoing actual mobsters in his attacks on the judge's family. the daughter. and he's doing it to the point that lawrence made. he knows he will never spend a day, a second, a moment in prison. but for me, there is something wonderfully poetic about the fact that despite the fact that even if convicted, he's not going to go to prison. the first person to actually criminally prosecute donald trump is a black harvard grad. the very kind of person that his former staff, the people who worked for him, steven miller et

cetera, want to never be at harvard law school. but he was. and he came out and graduated and he's prosecuting you, donald. and a black woman is doing the same exact thing in georgia and the black woman forced you to pay $175 million fine that's out now also in question because the people who put it up, that might not be legit. donald trump is being held to account by the very multicultural, multiracial democracy that he's trying to dismantle. and for me, there's something poetic and actually wonderful about that. it says something good about our country that we're still capable of having that happen. go, dei. my deis are bringing it home. >> striking in a system that also is affording him rights that he, when he was in power, tried to deny others. joy stays with us. we have to fit in a break. we have jen psaki, rachel maddow all doing their shows.

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not giving, but i think this is prolonged and will be challenging. the other piece the gag order factors into it. the more donald trump gets to mouth off and speak ill of potential witnesses, the more that intimidates people, right? he is part of the conversations

that the judge can have with potential jurors and is no question that donald trump may be up there with the judge as a potential juror is interviewed in depth. that is something you don't want or might be something you do want. it's daunting. it all combines to create a very, again, uphill climb to get this done expeditiously. there are a lot of challenges. >> he is a celebrity. we cannot forget, we sit here for months saying oh my god, if he finally sits for trial, justice will be served, that does not mean that donald trump will automatically be found guilty and people should be prepared for what that is going to look like for his hard-core supporters who will say that this was always a witchhunt, forget the other trials, but it

is the gift for the donor class who are on the fence. that's a distinct possibility. >> the burden is on the prosecution. >> one will get you a hung jury that gets trumped through the year which is all he cares about and after that, the prosecution has really think, do we want to go through it again? certain cases drop off with a hung jury. this jury will get him handled as carefully as a jury has ever been, it has a real effect, as we have seen, but i think the most reasonable bet is that it would be likely a fair jury. he has already had juries and panels here in new york city, and they came to an agreement, a unanimous agreement, about how to deal with that case.

it's not like we have not been through this once already in this very jurisdiction with the same jury pool. >> i 30 seconds, make it makes sense. i just want to say, what alex said, i had a former judge on the show this week was like, it could take a month on jury selection which is long to me, but she said, this will take a while. it's difficult and will take a while, the timing has been the metronomic background of this entire thing, starting last year when we were doing indictment specials. this trial is now happening before selection, barring some crazy unforeseen circ*mstance, but the amount of time is a good question. >> we are on day one of what could be weeks of selection and weeks of argument and however long they deliberate. i want to thank our intrepid panel and remind everyone it's

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a lot of politics are about the past and news is what is happening right now, but elections can be about the future. while we are hearing a lot of political debate about these two candidates or opinions about them or their age, it may be a significant chunk of the electorate is more focused on the future, what country we want in 10 or 20 years, and that's very different and potentially surprising compared to what our debates sound like. signing off, from our special coverage they don't go anywhere, rachel is coming up at 9:00 and right now, we have "inside."

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Special coverage of former President Donald Trump's criminal hush money trial in New York.

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